From Isolation to Empowerment: The Transformative Journey of Men
The central theme of our discussion revolves around the pervasive issue of male loneliness, a phenomenon that often remains unacknowledged yet significantly impacts men’s emotional well-being. We delve into the notion that many men lack the necessary skills and practices to accept the love that is readily available to them, a realization brought forth by our guest, Jason Lang. His extensive experience with men's groups illuminates how these communities serve as critical spaces for men to confront their vulnerabilities, share profound emotional experiences, and ultimately forge deeper connections with one another. Through our conversation, we explore the transformative power of such groups in alleviating feelings of isolation and fostering a sense of belonging among men. This episode serves as an invitation for listeners to reflect on their own connections and consider the profound benefits of engaging in supportive male communities.
The dialogue presented in this episode delves into the intricate dynamics of male loneliness and the pivotal role that men's groups play in fostering emotional connection and resilience. Jason Lang, the featured guest, shares his personal insights, articulating the profound impact of societal expectations on men's mental health. His narrative reveals the dissonance experienced by many men, who, despite being surrounded by peers, often grapple with feelings of isolation and a lack of emotional support. The discussion emphasizes the critical need for men to create spaces where they can authentically express their vulnerabilities, thus challenging the cultural norms that discourage such openness. In exploring the ramifications of emotional isolation, the episode underscores how the inability to share feelings can lead to destructive coping mechanisms, such as substance abuse or disengagement from meaningful relationships. Jason highlights the importance of establishing connections with oneself and others, positing that many men struggle to articulate their emotions due to societal conditioning that equates vulnerability with weakness. The conversation further advocates for the necessity of communal support systems, where men can engage in meaningful dialogues about their fears, grief, and aspirations without the fear of stigmatization. Ultimately, this episode serves as a compelling call to action for men to prioritize their emotional health by fostering supportive relationships. Jason's experiences and insights illuminate the transformative potential of men's groups, encouraging listeners to seek connection and embrace vulnerability as a strength. The overarching message is clear: by breaking down the barriers of isolation and embracing emotional authenticity, men can cultivate a more fulfilling and enriched existence.
Takeaways:
- Many men lack the ability to receive love, which impacts their mental health.
- Men often experience loneliness even when surrounded by friends who cannot share deep emotions.
- Disconnection from oneself and others can lead to significant mental health challenges for men.
- Developing a support system through men's groups can foster deeper connections and resilience.
- A man's ability to express vulnerability can positively influence his relationships with family and friends.
- Investing in male friendships can help men feel less isolated and enhance their emotional well-being.
Transcript
Of that is, I swear to God, a lot of men don't know, don't have the practice in how to receive the love that's actually available to them.
Speaker B:Good morning, good evening, good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker B:This is John here.
Speaker B:This is Optimizing Human Potential.
Speaker B:Welcome to Optimizing Human Potential.
Speaker B:It has been a minute since I've been on.
Speaker B:There's been a lot going on.
Speaker B:I'm not going to get into that because I would bore the living daylights out of you.
Speaker B:But I'm glad that everybody could join me today.
Speaker B:I've got a fantastic guest, especially if you're a man, also if you're a woman, because you might want to be supporting your men.
Speaker B:And that's something we gotta talk about.
Speaker B:My guest today is Jason Lang, who is from his own organization called Evolutionary Men.
Speaker B:I thought this would be a great, great podcast to talk about, a great episode to talk about his experiences with loneliness and men's groups and men's groups that he runs now.
Speaker B:I've never been a part of a men's group, but I suppose I've had my experiences in the military and we've had our own little men's groups and, you know, small groups and stuff like that.
Speaker B:So this is going to be an interesting convers.
Speaker B:So if you're a man out there, you're lonely or you're experiencing something, I know I do a lot of work with people out there, especially with men and veterans with grief.
Speaker B:That's part of my passion.
Speaker B:That's what I work with, is what I'm known for throughout the world.
Speaker B:But I've never done it in a men's group.
Speaker B:And so today I'm having a great conversation with Jason.
Speaker B:Jason, welcome to Optimizing Human Potential.
Speaker B:How are you?
Speaker A:Yeah, I'm doing great.
Speaker A:So excited to be here.
Speaker A:Thanks for having me.
Speaker B:I'm excited for you to be here.
Speaker B:Now, obviously anybody who's listening, guys, I screwed up a number of times.
Speaker B:He's supposed to have been on this show.
Speaker B:I cancelled so many, but that's because there's so much going on.
Speaker B:But we've got here and I'm a great believer in that the time is being right.
Speaker B:So, Jason, when you and I connected before we kind of hit off, you told me a little bit about your story and how men's groups or men's communities had essentially played a massive, pivotal role in your own personal mental health.
Speaker B:So if you want to kind of just dive in, tell us a little bit about your story and then we'll get into the nitty gritty.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:My journey and passion for men's groups, like you're saying here, came from my own experiences.
Speaker A:So I was raised in the Midwest of the United States, out in the suburbs, lower kind of middle class, white male, have a lot of privilege.
Speaker A:Most of my basic security needs, kind of, you know, met growing up, stable food, stable shelter.
Speaker A:But as I got into my adolescence and then teenage years, that's when I really started to kind of hit my first challenges.
Speaker A:And it really kind of got thrown in my face when I hit puberty, right.
Speaker A:Women, and this thing started to happen where I would get really uncomfortable around women.
Speaker A:Like, my body would get tight, anxious, sweaty.
Speaker A:I would get really stuck up in my head and not at all comfortable.
Speaker A:And then simultaneously I started to make some male relationships at that time.
Speaker A:Guys who kind of became the first men in my life.
Speaker A:And I just noticed they related to each other in a different way than I did.
Speaker A:They would kind of wrestle with each other, horseplay with each other.
Speaker A:And I just didn't have any of the wiring for that.
Speaker A:Which, you know, after years of growth and transformation and awareness, it became clear that's just not what my family knew how to do.
Speaker A:It was a household of neglect in a lot of ways, physical and emotional neglect.
Speaker A:So I kind of got launched into the world, not really knowing how to relate to people and.
Speaker A:And internalized that.
Speaker A:Even as I did start to meet a lot of friends, I didn't know how to share what was going on inside me.
Speaker A:And so I turned to food, to porn, to video games, different things to numb out for many, many years.
Speaker A:When, even though I did have friends, I still felt lonely with them, which is something we'll get to talk about, which is actually a pretty big deal for a lot of men too.
Speaker A:It's not necessarily just the stereotype of, oh, the guy who's at home alone with no friends and never sees anyone.
Speaker A:A lot of male loneliness happens in the context of, I have men in my life, but we don't know how to talk about deep, real things.
Speaker A:We know how to talk about things.
Speaker A:Sports, stats, politics, philosophy, movies.
Speaker B:Yeah, honestly, you're kinda.
Speaker B:You're hitting on something that I think is really heavy for people out there, because I know part of the big thing I mentioned that I do is that I'm known throughout the world for grief and working with people with grief and men and grief.
Speaker B:And that's so.
Speaker B:And this is the thing.
Speaker B:There's a loneliness in it, but there's a loneliness that comes from not Just being alone.
Speaker B:But it's that sense of disconnection.
Speaker B:And I kind of want to ask you as well, were your experiences, Jason, was it disconnection for you?
Speaker B:Did you also feel disconnected from your family in a way?
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, totally.
Speaker A:I didn't know.
Speaker A:I mean, that was what really became apparent to me is.
Speaker A:So here's the thing.
Speaker A:Later in life, as connection did become available to me, I didn't know how to connect back because first and foremost, I wasn't connected to myself.
Speaker A:Something I help a lot of men with, right?
Speaker A:We got to connect to ourself and know what's going on, then learn how to share that in order to connect with others.
Speaker A:But that's really.
Speaker A:You named it.
Speaker A:This is something I work with a lot of men on is disconnection often comes in three forms, right?
Speaker A:We disconnect from ourselves, we feel disconnected from others, and then we actually feel disconnected from it.
Speaker A:Sounds a little woo woo, right?
Speaker A:But like the planet, that we're actually part of something, right?
Speaker A:We're part of an ecological system.
Speaker A:We're part of nature in a sense.
Speaker A:And it is brutal, right?
Speaker A:And it creates a tremendous amount of depression when that disconnection is so strong for men.
Speaker A:And so where I tend to specialize is getting men connected to themselves and then most particularly from there, connected to each other by learning some of these skills about how to go into the interior spaces with each other, in a sense, and talk about things like grief or shame or anger or fear that a lot of men have never been taught how to do.
Speaker A:So a lot of men walk around, right, posturing, oh, I'm okay.
Speaker A:I can't let you know I'm not okay, because then you'll think I'm less than a man, you know, whatever, whatever, whatever.
Speaker A:And then everyone's alone.
Speaker B:And I think that's the.
Speaker B:There's an element of expectation, what people expect from you.
Speaker B:Cause I know from my military career, and then when I came out of the military, I worked in other specialist security operations and we were men, we were warriors.
Speaker B:We don't cry.
Speaker B:That shit just don't happen.
Speaker B:But then you realize that not being allowed to express that causes even more.
Speaker B:I've seen so many of my brothers in arms.
Speaker B:I see brothers and sisters in arms because obviously I don't want to kind of discount the women out there, but where there's an expectation of us to be that warrior, and we see it, and you probably saw this a lot, not only in your own life, but with people, you connect.
Speaker B:We see it as a Weakness or I did.
Speaker B:I used to.
Speaker B:You see it as a weakness.
Speaker B:You can't show that weakness because if you show that weakness, you become.
Speaker B:You're not the lion looking for the prey.
Speaker B:You become the prey.
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:In the men's work world, we often tie this to the myth of the lone wolf.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That the romantic ideal is the lone wolf just here in the States.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:The rugged Marlboro man cowboy out on the frontier, doesn't need anyone tough as nails, put some pulls himself up by his bootstraps.
Speaker A:Now, obviously there are strengths to self reliance and agency.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:But it is a myth in the sense.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Even in the natural world, the lone wolf is the one that was kicked out of the pack.
Speaker A:And that wolf will not survive as long.
Speaker A:It will die faster.
Speaker A:It's just like that's the real truth.
Speaker A:And I see that.
Speaker A:And we see that playing out culturally with men as well.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Three out of four suicides are met.
Speaker A:Our male loneliness, like we've been talking about, they have the research, right.
Speaker A:It's as deadly as a smoking a pack of cigarettes a day.
Speaker A:Like it increases heart disease.
Speaker A:You die earlier, you die faster.
Speaker A:Social isolation has a massive impact on us.
Speaker A:And there's all this cultural pressure, though, that to be a man means to be tough and not need anyone.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That's kind of the jam.
Speaker A:And we're really hitting the limits of that and even.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, this is the kind of.
Speaker A:The irony though then, you know, here again, I'm a little states focused.
Speaker A:I'm sure there's equivalents around the world, but.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Our kind of highest military order here, we would consider the seals, but it's a SEAL team.
Speaker A:It's not a SEAL individual.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It is a team because they're more effective together.
Speaker A:And that's what we're starting to see the shift in male culture to.
Speaker A:In terms of the work I'm doing that.
Speaker A:And this is very confronting for, you know, I do get the tough guys that come to me or that, you know, I don't need anyone.
Speaker A:I don't need help.
Speaker A:But the honest to God truth is, no matter how tough you think you are as a man, there will be a moment in your life, whether it's illness, accident, or old age, where your body will fail you and you will not be able to push through with sheer will.
Speaker A:And it's at that moment you are going to be confronted with what kind of connections have I built around me?
Speaker A:And the real challenge I work with A lot of men is they wait till the crisis to realize they don't have the support system.
Speaker A:So then the crisis itself becomes accentuated because I don't have people to take care of me here.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:In a sense.
Speaker A:And so what I tell men is start investing in those relationships now because then life's going to hit you.
Speaker A:It's just the way life works.
Speaker A:There's going to be stress.
Speaker A:You're experiencing it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You've had up and downs, crazy stuff we all do.
Speaker A:This is where having a network, you know, in my case, what I'm going to suggest to men is having some men around you that can support you, guide you, offer you help when you need it, and yeah, also offer you accountability if you need to, you know, if they need to whip you into shape a little bit, if you're falling off track or falling out of integrity.
Speaker A:But it's one of the greatest investments I think men can make right now that really sets themselves up for long term thriving.
Speaker B:Now, before you go to actually start to work with me, I want to kind of take you back to maybe that catalyst where you decided, hey, you know what?
Speaker B:I'm going to spend the rest of my.
Speaker B:Not the rest of your days, because who knows what's going to happen, but I'm going to spend whatever time I want to invest into helping other men.
Speaker B:Why did you want to help other men?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So essentially my journey was right.
Speaker A:Like I said, I got pretty lucky in that in my 20s.
Speaker A: This was back in the mid-: Speaker A:So back then, if you said men's group, most people would associate it with either a recovery group like AA or some kind of church.
Speaker B:Dude, that's in my mind now when you say that, like, I'm thinking, you know, my name is Jock and I'm an alcohol alcoholic.
Speaker B:Not that I am an alcoholic, for sight is denial.
Speaker B:But you get it.
Speaker B:The minute you say that, my mind conjures up this image of men in this circle community saying, I've got this issue.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:And aa, that whole model is one of the most successful, decentralized communal models to support people there is.
Speaker A:And a lot of churches and stuff have had male Bible groups, but a lot of people don't fall into either of those buckets.
Speaker A:And so what's started to happen over the last 20 years is this shift to there needs to be another kind of group.
Speaker A:And so I was in a group and frankly, man, I just.
Speaker A:It Helped me a lot.
Speaker A:So I wouldn't shut up about it.
Speaker A:As I met people in my life, I was like, yeah, I'm part of this men's group.
Speaker A:These are the guys closest to me.
Speaker A:They're my closest friends.
Speaker A:And then so I started to have men asking me, you know, can I. Oh, that sounds interesting.
Speaker A:Can I come check it out?
Speaker A:And the nature of that group was we met in one of my members offices.
Speaker A:He was a therapist and it was a tiny room, like there wasn't room for more men.
Speaker A:So I was like, no, it's closed.
Speaker A:Like I don't have space.
Speaker A:But it kind of dawned on me, well, maybe I can make this space available for other men.
Speaker A:So I started leading groups out of my living room in Los Angeles at the time, just on meetup.com and putting it out there.
Speaker A:And men showed up.
Speaker A:And I discovered that I really enjoyed creating the space for other men that I had been given, that had supported me so much.
Speaker A:And just seeing, swear to God, the relief that would come over men when they realized they were in a space where they didn't have to posture or pretend or armor up and that it was okay to just be themselves and admit they were in pain or, or something was hard, or there was something they wanted that they didn't know how to get and that they weren't alone in that.
Speaker A:One of the most healing thing I see for men is when they are just around someone who's like, hey, this thing's happening in my life and it's really hard and I'm kind of embarrassed by it or I don't know what to do about it.
Speaker A:The other guy's like, oh my God, me too.
Speaker A:Just the mutual recognition is often so healing and in itself starts to create that connection that moves men out of isolation.
Speaker B:Do you know, I'm sitting here thinking I've got so many freaking questions, but I'm sitting here also thinking that we're supposed to as men as well.
Speaker B:If you have a wife, you have a spouse, a girlfriend, or even if you've got a boyfriend, I don't judge.
Speaker B:But if you've got anything right, you're supposed to be able to open up to them.
Speaker B:But there's a little bit, there's a little bit of something there where you don't want to open up because you don't want to show that weakness.
Speaker B:Because for me, I can be open to my wife.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:But there was a point and just as we got married and I'd left the services and stuff like that, there Was still an element to me that was still testing that water that was still kind of, I'm supposed to look after you.
Speaker B:I am the person who does it all.
Speaker B:And you have to lean on me and you're the man.
Speaker B:I don't have anybody else to lean on because there's no support system there.
Speaker B:And so there's an element where I think men as well, don't realize they're kind of caught up in this paradigm where they have to feel as if they have to look after everybody so they can't open up to their wives or their boyfriends or whatever they've got.
Speaker B:They can't do it because there's this element that they still feel they have to be that leader.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:The provider trap.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:My job is to take care of everyone else, and yet who's there then to take care of me?
Speaker A:And I see this play out in two poles that are damaging to men.
Speaker A:On the one hand, like you said, there's nowhere for me.
Speaker A:This is a real thing for guys.
Speaker A:They don't know where to put their pain.
Speaker A:They don't know where to put their pain, what to do with it.
Speaker A:So what most men default to was then, I'll drink it away, smoke it away, fuck it away, et cetera.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And that doesn't ultimately deal with it.
Speaker B:Or the pain, really.
Speaker A:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:Or I see other guys who, paradoxically, the only place they feel safe bringing any kind of emotion or fear, vulnerability is their intimate relationship.
Speaker A:And when that's the only place it can actually be really uncomfortable for our wives or spouses because they're like, oh, my God, I don't know what to do with that.
Speaker A:Like, I don't know how to help you.
Speaker A:Like, do you need me to take care of you?
Speaker A:Like, I've been telling you, I want you to be vulnerable with me, but now you're vulnerable with me.
Speaker A:And I'm like, ah, where's the strong man?
Speaker A:I don't know what to do.
Speaker B:That's it.
Speaker B:They want the vulnerability, but they're not ready for the vulnerability.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So here's the hack I've seen that works so well for men.
Speaker A:It's that exact same interaction, let's say, with our spouse, when we bring that.
Speaker A:But it's already in the context of we ourselves are being held by other men.
Speaker A:The charge isn't there in the same way.
Speaker A:And so.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I had an experience with this maybe like a decade ago when I first moved into men's coaching.
Speaker A:I wasn't so smart in how I did it kind of let go of all my work, was like, I'll burn the bridges.
Speaker A:I'm just gonna go for it.
Speaker A:And was a financial ruin, right?
Speaker A:Like, I was a year in, had 40 grand in debt.
Speaker A:My wife and I had wanted to start a family.
Speaker A:It was really stressing her out.
Speaker A:It was stressing me out.
Speaker A:Typically, what, like a lot of men, I would say in stress, what I would do is withdraw from the relationship.
Speaker A:And then when I would withdraw, that would make her start to feel afraid of like, does he love me anymore?
Speaker A:What's going on?
Speaker A:Anyway, all this stuff was happening, and one day it came to a head and we're sitting next to each other at our dinner table.
Speaker A:And luckily I had been working this with my men in my men's group.
Speaker A:The fear I was in, the shame I was in that I wasn't making enough money, that I needed to do something different to create some stability for us.
Speaker A:And so it comes up, and this is one of the great gifts I think can come from men's work.
Speaker A:I had done the work, metabolized this energy.
Speaker A:So I was able to take a deep breath and look her in the eye and just, bottom line it, I'm struggling right now.
Speaker A:It feels like I'm losing everywhere and I want to be winning.
Speaker A:And it hurts that I don't know what to do right now.
Speaker A:My guys are helping me figure it out and make a plan.
Speaker A:And I want things to get better for all of us.
Speaker A:Just that, just the clarity of that, of I'm aware of what's going on.
Speaker A:I'm aware of what's going on.
Speaker A:I'm getting help around it.
Speaker A:I want you to know so you can feel close to me.
Speaker A:But guess what?
Speaker A:I don't need you to save me, honey.
Speaker A:Her whole.
Speaker A:She literally just her whole body relaxed, knowing where I was at.
Speaker A:And that I had a process of men around me.
Speaker A:So this is one of the great gifts, I think men in particular.
Speaker B:Do you think, Jason, it was because you had a plan and that you didn't say, I don't know what to do with the.
Speaker B:That seems to me to be that catalyst.
Speaker B:I have a plan.
Speaker A:I have.
Speaker A:Even if I didn't have the plan, I'm working on it with other people.
Speaker A:Which means it's not falling at your feet to save me, Mommy.
Speaker B:Well, exactly.
Speaker A:Which is what can happen if we don't have that support system around us.
Speaker A:So having a network of men around us is literally my best man at my wedding said like a one sentence speech.
Speaker A:He walks up and he's like.
Speaker A:Like, while you hold Violet, I hold you.
Speaker B:That was it.
Speaker A:That was it.
Speaker A:That was it.
Speaker A:That's so profound.
Speaker B:Phenomenal.
Speaker B:But a bit of a cop out for him as well.
Speaker A:Well, he has his.
Speaker A:He was in a men's group with me.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So he was.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, the group.
Speaker A:The group was the eye there.
Speaker A:But the point was you get to be present for your family and provide and support them, and then we support you in the process, just like you'll support us and holding our families.
Speaker A:And that's the thing that so many men are missing.
Speaker A:And when they get it, here's the thing that's so incredible is it's not even that.
Speaker A:You just become more resilient as a man.
Speaker A:You go to that next level, which is a bit of a nerdy term, but you become antifragile.
Speaker A:Challenge actually strengthens you.
Speaker A:Just like when you work out and you stress your muscles, they get stronger.
Speaker A:When you have the right support system, something comes at you and it becomes an opportunity for growth rather than an opportunity for collapse or paralyzation.
Speaker B:I want to go back to your very first day you.
Speaker B:Before you were the facilitator.
Speaker B:Cast your mind back to your very first men's group.
Speaker B:The first day that you went in.
Speaker B:How did you feel?
Speaker B:What was that experience like for you?
Speaker B:And did you have any expectations?
Speaker A:Yeah, in some sense, it unfolded for me a little more.
Speaker A:What's the word?
Speaker A:Gradually than I even realized.
Speaker A:Because those same guys I mentioned that I met in high school, one of the very first things we used to do was we'd sit around a fire in a guy's backyard.
Speaker A:And what I noticed, even at that age was when we didn't have the skills, men are often more willing to speak something into the fire than they are into another man's eyes.
Speaker A:This is one of the old things that, like, oh, yeah, suddenly it's dark.
Speaker A:We're not like, it's kind of dark out.
Speaker A:There's a fire there.
Speaker A:Suddenly I can start to get a little more real.
Speaker A:And so I had had some of those experiences enough to know there was something there.
Speaker A:And then as I got into my first explicit men's group, I was like, oh, shit, this is next level.
Speaker A:Like, no one told me this was possible in terms of getting to be around men who were deep, caring and held a standard, you know, like an actual standard of accountability and presence and could reflect that to me not in a shaming way, but in a way that encouraged the best of me to come forward.
Speaker A:So my first groups you know, sometimes I was terrified of, like, oh, my God, what's going to happen when the attention's on me.
Speaker A:But what I found was what made me keep coming to men's groups year over year was I always left group with more energy than I came into it with, literally.
Speaker B:So let me.
Speaker B:Let me get this.
Speaker B:Let me get this idea then.
Speaker B:So, as I said, I'm totally wrong.
Speaker B:I've never been to a men's group, you know, other than myself and the guys like you say, run a campfire, having a beer.
Speaker B:Soldiers, we used to say, pull up a sandbag, swing a light bulb, and we'll tell stories.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That's the kind of.
Speaker B:That's the kind of idea.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So I kind of want to go through.
Speaker B:And this is just me interested, because I've never experienced it.
Speaker B:So let's say I'm going into your men's group.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:What is expected of me?
Speaker B:Am I expect.
Speaker B:Are you going to start asking me questions or am I going to.
Speaker B:Are you going to say stand up and introduce yourself and tell us what's going on?
Speaker B:I mean, what would that be?
Speaker B:Experience with you.
Speaker A:There's so many different types of groups.
Speaker A:Um, so I'm going to speak to a pretty high level here in terms of how a lot of my groups are just structured, which is often what we do is we come together and we go through agreements which are literally like, what are the rules we're going to be playing by while we're sitting in circle with here tonight?
Speaker B:Which there's many foundation.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:We set a context which allows us to go deeper and which prevents it from just being another conversation.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:One of the most important ones that tends to create the most safety for men is confidentiality.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Just the simple thing I was going.
Speaker B:To ask you that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Anything we talk about here in group, it stays right here in group, unless you have the explicit consent of the person to share it outside, because that's really important to men.
Speaker A:And so we go through agreements like that.
Speaker A:And then usually what I'll lead men in is some kind of embodiment or presence, practice of.
Speaker A:Okay, you got your whole meditation, some kind of breath work, something to actually arrive here in your body in the moment.
Speaker A:Oftentimes, you know, if it's in person, you've just driven across town, or if it's virtual, you just put the kids down and it's an opportunity to land inside yourself, like to really land.
Speaker A:Where am I right now?
Speaker A:I'm right here.
Speaker A:Okay, great.
Speaker A:And then we do some Kind of check ins, which are an opportunity for each man to bring his voice into the space to share a little bit about how's he showing up to group today, like what's going on, how is he feeling, what might he want to get out of group today.
Speaker A:And then sometimes we'll do some kind of connection based practice or sometimes topics of discussion.
Speaker A:But I tend to not go there because men can just discuss ideas forever and ideas don't necessarily.
Speaker B:I was going to say that can just go.
Speaker B:I would just keep going and going and going.
Speaker A:You can just.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So what I tend to then do is we go into a deeper cut of work with usually two to three guys where we really put sustained attention on them for 20, sometimes 30 minutes to help them get really in contact with what's going on in their lives.
Speaker A:And paradoxically with the men's group, often what is the most valuable thing we can do for men is not solve the problem for them, but it's actually slow them down and get them connected to their direct felt body experience, which is often emotional of some capacity.
Speaker A:And once we've felt the truth of what is actually going on for us, often the next actions become clear and then guys can help us dial it in, create accountabilities for it so that when we go back into the world, we're actually taking something forward proactively to help improve our situation.
Speaker A:So I mean that's just one very general frame.
Speaker A:But the idea is we slow down and we go under the hood as to what's going on in your life, what's got your attention, where are you in tension, what are you wanting, where do you feel stuck?
Speaker A:Like these are the types of different things that men often don't have the space to talk about.
Speaker A:Where they're scared, where they're afraid.
Speaker A:Sometimes even it's the other way for men somewhere where they have somewhere safe to celebrate.
Speaker A:I worked my ass off on this thing and it finally happened and, and I've had no one to really celebrate it with because X, Y or Z. Yeah, sometimes that is just as valuable for men is to have a place to come to share their wins just as much as to share their challenges.
Speaker B:Jason, when, when you.
Speaker B:I think this is a bit of a dodgy thing because obviously there's a confidentiality side things you've got to keep.
Speaker B:But what if, what if a.
Speaker B:What if a man in a man's group comes in and he admits something that is completely against the law or which, you know, I'm going to ask a question because it's almost like working with a lawyer or, you know, there's confidentiality.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Or how do you deal with that?
Speaker B:Because there has to be an element of responsibility that you have as somebody who's facilitating.
Speaker B:What if someone opens up and says something that is like, well, that's just illegal.
Speaker B:You can't deal with that.
Speaker B:That is that.
Speaker B:How do you deal with that?
Speaker B:I mean, sure.
Speaker A:I mean, you know, there's certain things kind of like if you were divulging to a therapist that we're going to have to take action on.
Speaker A:If you're in imminent.
Speaker A:If you're about to cause imminent harm to yourself or someone else, then, yeah, right.
Speaker A:That agreement supersedes the other agreements of, okay, yeah, we need to call authorities or get you checked into somewhere for the level of care you can't get.
Speaker A:That's important and that's part of it.
Speaker A:And I have no problem going there.
Speaker A:I don't tend to work with those men at quite that level because often what happens is they get into a safe, loving space where they can share things and the deeper pain comes out and any of the.
Speaker A:The strong reactions start to dissipate.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:In terms of.
Speaker A:And frankly, for a lot of men, one of the things I see they end up craving the most.
Speaker A:They didn't even know is men who love them enough to call them on their bullshit.
Speaker B:It's like, that's an interesting.
Speaker B:You mentioned the word love as well.
Speaker B:And also I love the idea of having.
Speaker B:Being accountable and calling all bullshit or something like that.
Speaker B:But when you say.
Speaker B:And I'll be the first to admit this, because I still have that.
Speaker B:It took me a long time coming to America, coming from the background that I came from.
Speaker B:I'd meet some of my guys that I know here now, and they were like, I love you, man.
Speaker B:You know, And I'm not a hugger.
Speaker B:I'd be like, yeah, shake hands and everything else.
Speaker B:Like, no, I am opened up.
Speaker B:I'll hug the guy like my buddy, you know, Rob, And I'll be like, I love you.
Speaker B:But that took a long, long, long.
Speaker B:I've been here for nearly 15 years now, and I only said it like a year ago.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:So I get it, right?
Speaker B:So it's hard.
Speaker B:And even now, I say that, like, I'm saying it now, and I'm saying it to Rob, like, I love you, dude.
Speaker B:You know, like, that still feels freaking weird for me, right?
Speaker A:Feels weird for a lot of men, right?
Speaker B:And it's like, you know, I'm a very spiritual Guy, I deal a lot with grief.
Speaker B:I deal a lot with people in high school, you know, high level networks and veterans and things.
Speaker B:So I still have that warrior type instinct that in me.
Speaker B:And even though it's taking me years and I'm kind of getting out of it, I still find that difficult to even use that word.
Speaker B:So you mentioned that and you mention it with such passion and like, it's no problem.
Speaker B:You're like, Jason, you're like, I love you, man.
Speaker B:My other mate I should get you in touch with, right?
Speaker B:Chris, Chris Rush.
Speaker B:He's the guy all the time.
Speaker B:I mean, he'd be like, I love you, bro.
Speaker B:I love you, brother.
Speaker B:And I'm like, it took me fricking ages.
Speaker B:I'm like, that's a bit weird.
Speaker B:Like, you know, like, rain on you.
Speaker B:But you.
Speaker B:It just flows from you.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Well, it.
Speaker A:It's a capacity.
Speaker A:So just like, we have to train to get stronger in our bodies or learn new skills.
Speaker A:This is one of the most underdeveloped capacities in men because.
Speaker A:And it's not necessarily all men's fault because of all these cultural pressures we talked about of providership and being tough.
Speaker A:Most men I know more and more these days, I work with men in middle age and beyond who are coming to me saying, I did all the things I was supposed to do.
Speaker A:I got married, I had kids, I focused on the career, and I'm exhausted.
Speaker A:I feel so depleted.
Speaker A:My life is so much burdened.
Speaker A:I feel wrung out.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And a big part of that is, I swear to God, a lot of men don't know, don't have the practice in how to receive the love that's actually available to them.
Speaker A:So they have a spouse that is dying to pour love into them or kids or friends.
Speaker A:And then we often get confronted with it in men's work that this person doesn't need anything from me, they just love me.
Speaker A:Most men here, they're like, what?
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:What do you mean?
Speaker A:What do I do with that?
Speaker A:Literally, learning to let that in is one of the biggest skills men can train in, that then helps them have the fuel to not be exhausted, depleted, overworked all the time, to actually get resourced, which paradoxically then allows them to lead more, serve more, do all those things.
Speaker A:It's a circuit, right?
Speaker A:It's a circuit.
Speaker A:The more we can receive, the more we can give without hurting ourselves.
Speaker A:So that capacity to receive love, to share that freely, that was so not part of my family system.
Speaker A:That is something I had to Very intentionally work to be able to say the words more flowingly and receive the words more flowingly.
Speaker A:Because it was not the default, like I said, in my nervous system, I didn't ever touch it.
Speaker A:People would touch me and my body would bristle because I didn't know even if it was loving touch from a woman or a friend or a hug, my body would.
Speaker B:I'm still like, yeah.
Speaker A:And so I had to learn.
Speaker B:My wife keeps saying, go and have a massage.
Speaker B:I'm loving him.
Speaker B:Just touch me.
Speaker B:No chance.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Well, if you think of it as your capacity to receive, that is one of the ways you can let nourishment into your life.
Speaker A:Literally to fuel your body.
Speaker A:That's what will change it for a lot of men.
Speaker A:And this is what I see with men in men's group as they get hooked up, like, you know, we're men, we're met.
Speaker A:Like, talking metaphors to that fuel source of like, whoa, there's this clean, available energy.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's like looking back at life, it's like, oh, my God, I've been running on fumes.
Speaker A:How did I get through all of that?
Speaker A:Where, again, it doesn't mean life's not less stressful, but we have more resource to meet it.
Speaker B:Do you think men don't actually.
Speaker B:Do you think they don't know how to ask for help?
Speaker B:They've never been taught.
Speaker A:Oh, totally.
Speaker B:And also, do you think.
Speaker B:Is it down to the parents?
Speaker B:Because I remember my dad was very distant and I'm sure you mentioned your family a number of times.
Speaker B:It wasn't like that.
Speaker B:Do you think?
Speaker B:Not that you wanna put blame at anybody's feet, but there's an element here of what you've been brought up with.
Speaker B:There is.
Speaker B:There has to be some blame to your parents and from their environment.
Speaker A:And, yeah, there's.
Speaker A:We're all part of many systems.
Speaker A:We have a family system, like our unique family system.
Speaker A:We have a cultural system.
Speaker A:Like, there's.
Speaker A:There's so many different systems that we're often.
Speaker A:And then there's the system of masculinity.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:That's like.
Speaker A:So men are often getting hit on all fronts that we're having to grow through, in a sense.
Speaker A:So it's more challenging, I think, for a lot of men.
Speaker A:But it's also why, compared to women, in a sense, the payoff is so much higher.
Speaker A:Women often have a lot more relationality.
Speaker A:Know how to give hugs, get affection.
Speaker A:There's plenty of research that shows even how parents touch little boys is different from how they touch little girls.
Speaker A:Like it starts at an early age.
Speaker A:But as men get,.
Speaker B:It is interesting.
Speaker B:I watched someone yesterday, I was in Starbucks yesterday, shout out to Starbucks.
Speaker B:I'm always there writing on eating someone or something, you know what I mean?
Speaker B:Buying a Starbucks.
Speaker B:And I see the girls coming in and they're young girls and there's like, I don't know, eight of them together and they're screaming, they're having fun.
Speaker B:You'd think they hadn't seen each other for like 20 years and they were having a reunion and then they all hug and everything else.
Speaker B:And then I see a couple of guys coming in like that.
Speaker B:Dude.
Speaker A:Dude.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Coffee.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I sit down and I'm like, what a fricking contrast.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's so true.
Speaker A:And that's, you know, again, there's going to be some differences there.
Speaker A:But what I'm pointing towards is for men who want to be more effective in the world, plugging into a group like this literally brings you more resource, brings you more energy, more capacity to come back, to bounce back.
Speaker A:And then oftentimes, as we get better at receiving and giving literally just positive regard and affection to other men, that same muscle becomes more available to us in our other relationships too.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So a lot of times guys will come to me and suddenly they're like, yeah, I didn't expect this, but my relationship with my kids is getting better, my relationship with my wife is getting better because I'm able to receive them more, be more present with them, and I'm way more aware of what's going on inside me so I can share what's going on inside me with them in a way that makes them feel closer to me.
Speaker A:So the level of connection goes up.
Speaker A:And if there's anything I think pretty much anyone in the world could use more of, it's just connection.
Speaker A:It's like, absolutely, I've seen that it's the medicine that kind of heals all in a lot of ways that is so available to us that for all kinds of socio political, technological, all kinds of reasons, we're living in a time where a lot of people don't feel connected like we were talking about, particularly,.
Speaker B:I think we're even more.
Speaker B:You're hitting the nail on my head.
Speaker B:Is it because we are so connected through social media, but yet through that we are so disconnected?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:And they're disconnected from themselves.
Speaker B:So even I see a lot of them falling into a social, social media trap or technology trap.
Speaker B:And the amount of people that are like, the amount of guys That I know as well.
Speaker B:Not.
Speaker B:I don't really know, but I've.
Speaker B:I've.
Speaker B:Can't.
Speaker B:Not even connected with them, but I've heard from them where they're like, yeah, I just.
Speaker B:I. I had a relaxing day and I gamed all day.
Speaker B:You know, I was on a gaming machine.
Speaker B:I'm like, dude, I mean, that's just.
Speaker B:I can't.
Speaker B:I can't fathom that.
Speaker B:Why, that's just a waste, you know, because they still seem to be disconnected from themselves.
Speaker B:And here's the thing that you meant.
Speaker B:I want to go back to this whole element of loneliness because that's featured not only in my life, but in other men and people who are grieving.
Speaker B:There's an element of loneliness where you can be lonely because you don't have any connection, but you also have to get to a point where you're happy to be alone in yourself.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, the thing is, that's a massive disjointed understanding.
Speaker A:Totally.
Speaker A:Like, and there's a difference between, you know, feeling alone and loneliness.
Speaker A:Like, we can be around a lot of people and feel lonely.
Speaker A:These are different things.
Speaker A:And then sometimes the most liberating thing for us men is to actually be alone, to have no one around us.
Speaker A:But here's.
Speaker A:I mean, here's kind of the difference.
Speaker A:Connection.
Speaker A:So if I go off and I spend the weekend in the mountains, and I'm so grateful to have space to myself, but that is happening in a system with which I have deep, loving connection with my wife, with my children.
Speaker A:I'm seeing my men's group and my men multiple times.
Speaker A:They're in a sense, with me out there.
Speaker A:So I don't feel alone.
Speaker A:I feel great having the space of not having anyone around me.
Speaker A:It's two little kids, right?
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, my God, I can just wake up.
Speaker A:I can stretch when I want to, you know, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker A:And that's a big deal.
Speaker A:And there are, you know, I see.
Speaker A:I help a lot of men around relationships, and a lot of men will get into unhealthy, intimate relationships because they don't have any male connection in their life and they feel alone.
Speaker A:So their binary becomes either I go with this person who maybe I'm settling for or isn't a healthy relationship, right?
Speaker A:She doesn't treat me well.
Speaker A:There's not a lot of reciprocity, but at least I'm getting something versus if I don't have that, I have nothing.
Speaker B:Getting nothing.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Versus, again, part of what's great about getting into male community is, whoa, my connection tank's a lot fuller.
Speaker A:So I'm only going to enter into a relationship if it's a positive one.
Speaker A:Because if I got these men in my life, I don't feel as lonely.
Speaker A:That's the thing I see time and time again that and men actually become more comfortable being alone when they have connection in their life.
Speaker B:I can see that.
Speaker B:How does your wife.
Speaker B:Because you mentioned about spouses and relationships and stuff like that, but I want to.
Speaker B:How does your wife take this, what you're doing with these men, has it affected your relationship positively?
Speaker B:Has there been any negative downturns from it?
Speaker B:What does she say about the work that you do?
Speaker A:All upside.
Speaker A:The biggest challenge is I'm part of many men's groups.
Speaker A:I lead men's groups.
Speaker A:So it takes me away from my family often and that puts pressure on my wife to.
Speaker B:That's where I was going.
Speaker B:Because you're dedicating yourself to a lot of men.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Where do you have the time then to dedicate your.
Speaker A:But here's why that works for our family.
Speaker A:Because of who I come back as, the man that comes back every time I go away and spend time with men, I'm more grounded, regulated, connected, available.
Speaker A:Present to my kids, present to my wife.
Speaker A:There's almost nothing more painful to spouses or kids than a man who's in the room but checked out on his phone or only thinking about work and not really there.
Speaker A:So men's work paradoxically allows me to be more present in my family and it's very tangible.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:One of the.
Speaker A:The first time my wife and I moved in together, before we got married, we moved into this house together and we were coming from different apartments, right?
Speaker A:And I had underestimated to just say how long it would take me to move out of my apartment and get the truck full and come to her apartment.
Speaker A:And so we were in LA at the time.
Speaker A:I'm like going through rush hour traffic.
Speaker A:It's clear I'm not getting to her house until like 7pm which means we're not getting to our new house where we're going to be living in this new neighborhood till well after dark late at night when we've both been exhausted.
Speaker A:She's already getting a little cranky and antsy.
Speaker A:One of the great reasons to have a men's group picked up the bat phone, put out the sos.
Speaker A:Guys, I need help.
Speaker A:The truck's arriving at this address.
Speaker A:I need bodies to help me unload this.
Speaker A:Otherwise it's Going to take me six hours and my wife is having a hard time.
Speaker A:Four guys show up.
Speaker A:Took us 35 minutes.
Speaker A:Right, guys?
Speaker B:See, that's amazing.
Speaker B:That's brilliant.
Speaker B:Boom.
Speaker A:And many, you know, many, many moments like that.
Speaker A:And you know, my wife will say that and I think a lot of women don't necessarily have the language for this, but one of the first things that had her trust me deeply was when she met the men I had in my life.
Speaker A:Ah, wow.
Speaker A:If he's surrounded by these kind of men, that means something, right?
Speaker A:Like women notice that and look at that.
Speaker A:And again, it becomes part of that support system of, well, if he can't support himself, who do we have around us?
Speaker A:What network are we part of?
Speaker A:So investing in a men's group has paid huge dividends to my wife and my family in a sense that she's fully on board with this whole thing.
Speaker B:How would you work with a man?
Speaker B:There's guys out there, the, a little bit like myself, I suppose they have a problem with trust.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Men's group can open up, don't want to open up because they've an issue with trust.
Speaker B:And it could be bad relationships.
Speaker B:It could be, you know, like people that I know that are in the special forces community or have worked undercover in law enforcement.
Speaker B:Yeah, you have a loose lip sync ships thing.
Speaker B:You can't talk, right.
Speaker B:So you have someone who's breaking down on the inside, possibly even suicidal.
Speaker B:They come into your group but they can't open up.
Speaker B:They've got an issue with trust and you're not going to get that.
Speaker B:How do you cope with someone like that where you can't get that leverage straight away?
Speaker B:It's going to take a lot of work for you to handle that person.
Speaker A:It's a couple things.
Speaker A:One, this is where the structures and agreements are really important of what it means to create safety.
Speaker A:So like having very explicit agreements around vulnerability and transparency and confidentiality.
Speaker A:And one of the most important ones is no shaming and always honoring self.
Speaker A:So I never force a man to open before he's ready to open.
Speaker A:That shit just doesn't work.
Speaker A:Shame does not work long term to grow people.
Speaker A:And so it's allowing a man to be in his process as long as he needs to, but when the agreements are there.
Speaker A:Here's the thing I see shifted more than anything else.
Speaker A:We as men can learn how to do that most effectively by witnessing other men do it.
Speaker A:So he might not be ready to share, but if he sits in three or four circles and he sees men around him who he's learning to respect and trust, become vulnerable and open.
Speaker A:And as they do it, he has the experience of, wait a second.
Speaker A:I trust this man more now.
Speaker A:He feels even more courageous to me.
Speaker A:The fact that he was able to speak so honestly about his pain or touch his grief, like, that's incredible.
Speaker A:I trust this man more.
Speaker A:And then what starts to dawn on them is, wow, this same experience I'm having of these other men who are being so brave in bringing these things forward, that actually gives me the permission and the courage to do it myself.
Speaker A:So this is one way in men's group, I see.
Speaker A:What I kind of call the new leadership is we go first.
Speaker A:Because when you go first, you will often create the space and make another man feel safe to then step in.
Speaker A:I see it in groups all the time.
Speaker A:I wasn't going to share this, but the way you talked about what happened with your dad, you know, I got to be honest, I experienced something the same.
Speaker A:And just hearing you talk about that, realized that was a thing for me too.
Speaker A:And here's what happened.
Speaker A:And suddenly, because he saw another man through it, move through it, and be okay, like, essentially, like, literally be received and held in the group, that will often start to soften that armor for men.
Speaker A:And it can take time.
Speaker A:Many men I work with, some of their deepest trauma comes from other men.
Speaker A:Fathers who were abusive, uncles who were abusive, peers who were abusive or ostracized them or hurt them.
Speaker A:So there is a lot of guard and for good reason for a lot of men.
Speaker A:And it takes realizing, oh, wait, not all men are like that.
Speaker A:And in this container, it's safe.
Speaker A:I can be real in a different way.
Speaker A:And so for some men, it takes a little time.
Speaker A:And for some men, you know, this is one of the things we celebrate in groups.
Speaker A:One man's movement might look like, huge, like, oh, my God, he was, like, in tears, fully expressing something.
Speaker A:Another man's move might just be this big.
Speaker A:Like, his stretch might be, I'm having a hard day.
Speaker A:But for him, the karmic move of not saying anything to just saying, I'm having a hard day is just as meaningful.
Speaker A:And we celebrate the fuck out of that man.
Speaker A:In those instances, to say, wow, man, you really stretched.
Speaker A:You really were vulnerable today.
Speaker A:Even though it doesn't necessarily look like another man's, every man's edge is totally unique to them.
Speaker B:That's phenomenal.
Speaker B:I love the work that you're doing.
Speaker B:Jason, before, obviously, we're coming at.
Speaker B:I'll need to get you back on because we're coming up to time and there's so much that we can cover and do again.
Speaker B:So I definitely want to have you back on, but I would like you to take some time and maybe tell.
Speaker B:For anybody or any man that's listening out there, give me an example of the greatest breakthrough that you had in a men's group, not for yourself, but without, obviously, confidentiality, you can hypothesize, but the greatest breakthrough that you've seen that would make someone out there think, holy shit, that's what I need.
Speaker B:That's where I feel that.
Speaker B:And if that person, what you can help them with, does that make sense?
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, there's so many.
Speaker A:And I'm going to give.
Speaker A:I'm actually going to cheat and give you two here.
Speaker A:One's a personal experience, which is like more of a tactical, practical, like just real strategic thing.
Speaker A:And one's an experience I got to facilitate for a man.
Speaker A:And I'll start with his first.
Speaker A:He was a man that came from a culture where men were very patriarchal and, you know, abusive.
Speaker A:And it was all about shaming each other, never showing weakness in his particular environment.
Speaker A:Growing up was.
Speaker A:There was never, not a moment where he didn't feel in danger from being jumped, hurt, chased, beat up at home, at school, you name it.
Speaker A:And a lot of times it was other men.
Speaker A:And so he had developed a nervous system of extremely high vigilance of how to keep himself safe.
Speaker A:And he was a very strong guy because of this, like he could hold his own.
Speaker A:He came into group, and the nature of the container we created, the fear he had felt his entire life was allowed to move.
Speaker A:And his body shook and trembled and tears just overflowed him.
Speaker A:And we literally held him as his body convulsed from all the years of having to be on guard because of threat.
Speaker A:And for the first time in his life, his body was allowed to come out of fight or flight and downshift into safety in receptivity.
Speaker B:So he had a somatic experience.
Speaker A:He had a huge somatic release.
Speaker A:And his body, for the first time, had an imprint of what else was possible, what it means to feel safe in a room with other human beings who aren't going to hurt you, but are actually going to protect you.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:This is the key thing.
Speaker A:So many examples like that.
Speaker A:And then just one more practical one for me was there was a time a couple of years ago where my wife and I decided to move across the country.
Speaker A:More accessible, housing, all kinds of things.
Speaker A:And it was a challenging Move for me because I was very embedded in my community and my career was tied up there.
Speaker A:And we ended up getting a house and closing on it way sooner than we had anticipated.
Speaker A:My daughter was still in the middle of a school year.
Speaker A:There was just.
Speaker A:There was all of this happening.
Speaker A:And I'm in my men's group and I'm talking them out, and it just became stunningly clear.
Speaker A:I was like, if we move right now, I'm not ready.
Speaker A:And I will go through the whole move contracted and resentful and dragging my feet.
Speaker A:And this is a moment that feels so important to my wife.
Speaker A:She is so excited for this.
Speaker A:And if I'm.
Speaker A:That it's going to tank the whole experience for her and for me, right, Instead of being excited about moving into this new home, I'm going to be resentful.
Speaker A:Something so many men carry.
Speaker A:And so it became clear to me, I need three more months.
Speaker A:I need three months.
Speaker A:Our daughter can finish her school.
Speaker A:I can close out my whole life here, say goodbye to people, do all the things I want to do here, so that when we go, I can be a fuck.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it was in sitting in that group with those men that became very clear to me.
Speaker A:And I had a very tangible, I need to go home and have a conversation with her today.
Speaker A:And it had very real impact on us because it meant we had to pay rent and a mortgage for three months.
Speaker A:And, you know, it was a thing.
Speaker A:But I told her very honestly what it was and she was like, okay, I hear you, I hear you.
Speaker A:And you know, that's going to create some challenge for us, but I hear you and I want to support you in that.
Speaker A:And we were able to make that happen.
Speaker A:And so that experience got to become a delightful one, full of positivity and excitement, because by the time we were gone, literally packing the truck, I had my men packing me up and had tied the whole thing together.
Speaker A:So I was able to go into the new life totally available without holding all the guilt of, oh, my God, we have to do this.
Speaker A:And that's just one example of by bringing it to my men, they helped me get clear about what I needed so I could bring that forward to my partner in a very unsticky way.
Speaker A:That was a clear and clean ask.
Speaker A:She could have said no, but I was being very real and authentic versus for a lot of men, just, I'm going to let it stew inside.
Speaker A:I'm going to become passive aggressive.
Speaker A:I'm going to get resentful.
Speaker A:The shit tanks, relationships more than anything.
Speaker A:Else.
Speaker B:That's phenomenal, Jess.
Speaker B:Thanks for being so open and sharing that with.
Speaker B:I feel like this.
Speaker B:This hasn't been a podcast.
Speaker B:I feel like I'm in my little lone mini men's group.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker A:This is what it's all about.
Speaker B:So I really have.
Speaker B:I really have enjoyed.
Speaker B:And please tell everybody how they can get in touch with you through your website.
Speaker B:And obviously they can get it through our Optimizing Human Potential podcast and the holistic network.
Speaker B:But let them know how they can connect with you.
Speaker B:Men.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:If you're interested in me and men's groups and kind of what I'm about, easiest thing to do is go to my website, which is evolutionary men, not.com, but men.
Speaker A:And on there you'll see podcasts, writing, how to start your own group groups.
Speaker A:I have, like, everything you could ever want to know.
Speaker A:And if nothing else, you know, let me make it super clear.
Speaker A:My mission is for every man to be in a men's group.
Speaker A:It does not have to be with me or my organization.
Speaker A:So if you're like, okay, I hear the message, but I want to find something local to me, like, where do I start?
Speaker A:Just hit contact, write me a message.
Speaker A:I'm very well networked at this point.
Speaker A:I'll be able to at least point you in a direction that will get you moving to finding the kind of community, particularly you as a man deserve.
Speaker B:Who knows?
Speaker B:I may be hitting you up because I've always been interested in doing a men's group for people who are grieving, for men who are grieving.
Speaker B:Because I deal with that a lot, all the time, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker B:This has been.
Speaker B:It's been fast, actually.
Speaker B:This has gone really quickly.
Speaker B:I've really enjoyed this.
Speaker B:I really enjoy having conversations like this.
Speaker B:And like I said, this conversation for me felt like I was in my own little men's group.
Speaker B:And I'm definitely going to be having Jason back.
Speaker B:So if you've got any questions, then send them in to us at the listing network or just message us wherever you see this and we can get Jason on you.
Speaker B:Ask any questions.
Speaker B:It's important for men out there.
Speaker B:I know this coming from.
Speaker B:I've been an ex military guy.
Speaker B:I don't know if Jason's a military guy or not, but I know how we suffer.
Speaker B:I know how I've suffered in the past.
Speaker B:I know how other men suffer through grief, which is what I focus on.
Speaker B:But there's so many aspects to men that feel disconnected.
Speaker B:And he hit on something really important in this ladies and gentlemen, that disconnection is the fundamental catalyst for all of our suffering for men.
Speaker B:And so I think this idea, this framework that Jason is working on, bringing men together that can open and support each other is phenomenal.
Speaker B:And am I a guy that's used to maybe doing a men's.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:This is new for me.
Speaker B:Who knows?
Speaker B:This conversation may be a catalyst for me, but this, I think, is a phenomenal thing to do.
Speaker B:So please get in touch with us.
Speaker B:Jason, thank you for being with me on Optimizing Human Potential.
Speaker B:You're going to be back.
Speaker B:I'm going to look forward to the next conversation.
Speaker B:So much to talk about.
Speaker B:Are you a man?
Speaker B:Are you suffering?
Speaker B:Get in touch with Jason at the web link.
Speaker B:You'll be able to get it down.
Speaker B:And if you've got questions for him, send them in.
Speaker B:We should not suffer alone.
Speaker B:And we should never be alone or feel alone.
Speaker B:Guys, this is Optimizing Human Potential.
Speaker B:I'm Jock Brokus.
Speaker B:I am your host.
Speaker B:It's another conversation to optimize your human potential.
Speaker B:Join us at the Holistic Network.
Speaker B:Join us on the podcast Optimizing Human Potential.
Speaker B:Till next time.
Speaker B:God bless.
